Vaitea Cowan – Enapter

Unknown Speaker 0:04
Hello and welcome to the leaders in clean tech podcast. Each week our host David Hunt speaks to a leading startup CEO, executive or thought leader in the clean tech sector focused on the clean energy and clean mobility transitions. Each guest shares the highs and lows of their clean tech journey, their industry insights and their vision and hopes for the future.

David Hunt 0:31
Hello, I’m David Hunt, CEO and founder of Hyperion executive search and your host for the leading clean tech podcast is fitting after International Women’s Day on Monday that my guest this week is bi T account for Tia is passionate about green hydrogen and is one of the three co founders for naptha. An electrolyzer scale up and was on the Forbes 30 under 30 list in energy in 2020. She has the clear intention of inspiring and hiring more women and as a Pacific Islander have focused on scaling green hydrogen to reduce the impact of climate change. I hope you enjoy the episode. Hello, and welcome to the reasoning clean tech podcast right here. It’s good to have you join me.

Vaitea Cowan 1:08
Thank you so much for having me. It’s a pleasure to be here with you.

David Hunt 1:12
Excellent. So we’ve spoken a few times. And it’s good to have you at last on to on to the podcast. And there’s it’s quite an eventful time, I’m certainly really keen to discuss with you. The well there’s so much to talk about when you talk about hydrogen at the moment. So much noise and a lot of topics in sort of hydrogen versus batteries and electrons versus molecules discussion is always stimulating great debate, which is good. As long as there’s its debate and not tribalism, which unfortunate sometimes it can be. But before we get dig into all of that, I’m keen to get your thoughts and a little bit of experience or a little bit of a view of how you came to be where you are how you came to found or co founded Napster and a little bit of your backstory if you would.

Vaitea Cowan 1:55
Sure. So I was born in New Caledonia, which is a French island in the South Pacific next to Australia and New Zealand and I had the chance to to visit the my family there and every every other year since I grew up in the States. So I still had some contacts, obviously, with New Caledonia and got to enjoy the beautiful landscapes and the amazing nature. And all throughout my childhood. I think I spent so much time outdoors, whether it was camping or hiking or skiing, but always being in touch with our environment. And after I finished university, studying in Montreal, got a degree in business. I travelled to Thailand and seeking some sun, actually. And I was curious about what was going on in Chiang Mai. I was in in the past working online. But I wanted to really connect with the culture and the people of Chiang Mai. So I looked into what are the cool things happening here and stumbled upon the pizza house project, which is a self sufficient tome running on solar and hydrogen energy. And it struck me because I knew about solar and knew about wind. But I never heard about hydrogen. And when I dug a little deeper in this project, I saw Sebastian and Yan had just announced the first phase deployment of their hydrogen house. So this little light bulb in my head came out and I thought, fantastic. There’s more to come and I need to go meet these people, I need to understand what are they up to? What is their vision because it sounded like this new technology that I had to know more about. So I looked them up and saw that Sebastian also had a creative agency and so that was my my door and I stopped there one day, dropped my CV and introduced myself and had then the chance to work on promoting the PISA house project in Southeast Asia. And that meant organising events and bringing together the the different circles, right political and the business circle as well as the academia, of course, and having this this showcase of how does it work to generate your own fuel on site? How does it work at night? What are the advantages and and that’s really how it all started in regards to communicating about green hydrogen at first just in Southeast Asia. But then, two years later, having the chance to just start spreading the message much wider than that. And that was in 2017 when Sebastian Yan and I had the chance to found an actor which initially was the company developing the a mo electrolyzer, so the pattern today was developed by a company called axon Italy and it became an In 2017, as we provided a clear roadmap, a vision, and the real sense of urgency that this is a technology that can help us kick out fossil fuels. And we need to act fast in order for green hydrogen to be really cheap. As soon as possible. We’re thinking as of 2026, and not 2040.

David Hunt 5:24
Yeah, yeah, no, it’s always interesting the sort of the roads and the paths that that people get to when they are involved in either founded or co founding an organisation that have that story. I think what’s really cool and I talk about often is curiosity, and just where how exciting life can be and how interesting life becomes when you’re curious. And just the fact you ask those questions, and you reached out to, to the guys there who are doing some interesting things. And here we are a few years later, leading a really interesting organisation which I’m keen to hear a bit more about.

Vaitea Cowan 5:58
Definitely, yeah, it was a good surprise.

David Hunt 6:01
Okay, so there’s a lot of interest at the moment clearly on and indeed an investment of noise around green hydrogen, and there clearly are some enormous opportunities around that. But if you could share a little bit about a nap through itself and the sort of electrolyzer technology that you’re working with, and a little bit perhaps about the markets or industries where you see your main focus right now.

Vaitea Cowan 6:22
Sure. So an actor develops the patented an ion exchange membrane electrolyzer, and this offers low cost green hydrogen production at a super fast pace. So I’ll break it down with first our secret sauce, which is the a and then moving forward towards our unique approach to scale green hydrogen. So our secret sauce is the an ion exchange membrane electrolyzer. And in principle, it is like the pen there is a membrane separating the gases. However, ours is quite different, because it doesn’t require any noble metals, so we don’t use any Platinum or gold. And this obviously reduces the cost of our stack. But there’s also no titanium which is a huge cost saver, so we’re only using steel and a low cost stack and also a low cost balance of plans enables us to have the foundation for a low cost electrolyzer that can be mass produced. So the electrolyzer itself, produces hydrogen pre compressed at 35 bar at high pressure. And it’s easy to handle and it’s also safe. So when we look at the electrolyzers today on the market, we believe that our solution is taking the best of both worlds high performance, long lifetime and low cost. And what’s super exciting as well, is that the AGM is 14 years old. So there’s a lot of untapped potential in regards to the r&d route ahead of us.

David Hunt 8:06
And because there are so many potential markets and opportunities from from Green hydrogenic sometimes, and I speak to other sort of founders and leaders of origin businesses, and it’s a case of where do you focus first, of course. So is there a particular market sector or sectors which you feel are the easily addressable or more quickly addressable markets for right now?

Vaitea Cowan 8:27
Absolutely. And I think the best way of answering this question is to share a bit more in about our unique approach. Because we believe that we can address all markets, we’re not necessarily focusing on one specifically, because our products can meet the demand of all sectors and all applications for green hydrogen. And to take a step back in regards to how we are addressing the scale up for green hydrogen. It is to rethink the electrolyzer as a product, right that can be mass produced. And so when we look into the history of economics, and the most rapid cost reduction has been through mass produced commodities, and so we want to mass produce electrolyzers. And when we look at electrolyzer manufacturers today, they’re building some systems similar to the it industry’s early mainframe, right? These are supercomputers that require sophisticated engineering and planning. And that’s extremely difficult to scale. So at an after, we’re mimicking the introduction of a PC. And this is a product that is modular, flexible, scalable, and that can be mass produced. And so I how we’re approaching this question of which market is it going to be for us? We believe that we have all the characteristics and the features ness. Sorry for a modular electrolyzer to meet the kilowatt or the mega watt scale. And this really? Yeah, I think what’s what what I’d like to add just one more is in regards to our platform based approach, because at the core, we have the same stack. All of our products have the same stack. But you can choose to either have an electrolyzer produced one kilogrammes a day, or you can go up to 450 kilogrammes a day. In the end, it’s a question of stacking the core stack itself. So we’re inspiring ourselves from the automotive and the PC microprocessor industry, and following this product platform approach that allows us to increase our speed of product development, reduce the development costs, and also contribute to increasing our product variety.

David Hunt 10:51
Yeah, yeah, I think I think experience curve is really an important factor. And we’ve seen for solar in particular wind to an extent, and certainly in batteries in the last few years that the sort of the cost reductions based on the increasing production have been considerable. And there’s a lot of other technologies, which we never thought would do that winds actually, one would have started to move along quite nicely. But it’s interesting that you see your product is something that you can scan a manufacturer on such a scale that you do start to see these cost reductions across the piece.

Vaitea Cowan 11:20
Absolutely. And it’s, as I said, it’s so exciting to see what’s coming up next. I think we have some announcement coming up in April, and it’s still only the beginning, as mentioned before, so yes,

David Hunt 11:34
yes, what’s going on, I’m going to return to that. Because again, there has been some more recent, some good news more recently, in terms of your growth and scaling, but I want to touch on something which batters my timeline, both on Twitter, and LinkedIn and elsewhere. And that’s this whole sort of electrons versus molecules debate. And it seems to be one of the areas in clean tech, which is broadly very collaborative, where you do tend to get a bit of tribalism. And I just wonder what you see in that and why you think that hydrogen often raises such passions from from sort of both the pro and the anti brigades?

Vaitea Cowan 12:05
You know, I think what’s great in all of this is that everyone’s striving for the same mission, right? Increase the share of renewables stop using fossil fuels. So I think there’s so much passion enthusiasm, because we all want to end over reliance on fossil fuels. So of course, there’s going to be a bit of competition between the technologies, I think the rivalry I’m hearing the most about is is clearly in regards to mobility, this whole topic of fuel cell cars versus battery cars. And, you know, I think in the end, there’s no silver bullet, you know, what’s going to save us really save the humans and not just the planet is going to be decarbonizing our activities, and ultimately, we need to act fast. So, I believe that there is a place for each technologies, batteries are amazing at quick response and providing energy really immediately. Whereas fuel cells are great at providing long term energy consistently. And if you look at this, if you look through the characteristics of each, then you can see, okay, batteries do make sense, makes sense for bicycles or cars. But I think they do have a limit to what they can do. And then bam, here comes hydrogen taking on the rest. Because we need to think about how are we going to decarbonize our heavy loads are planes, or ships, how are industries that need a hydrocarbon going to get decarbonized. And this is when hydrogen really comes into play, because it’s an energy carrier. It’s universal. And it can really facilitate our energy transition away from fossil fuels for all of those sectors that need a molecule.

David Hunt 14:03
Yeah, and obviously, I think I should say, I think clearly, one of the things I love about having been in the clean tech sector for so long is there is that sort of general sense of mission and purpose that we’re all in it together, even if we’re doing slightly different things. And broadly, as you say, we will have the same objective, no one could perhaps expand upon that a little bit, because as you touched on there, there’s such a huge task ahead for us to decarbonize and to reach the sort of the Paris Agreement levels of of greenhouse gas emissions reductions. And it is critical that we use the best technologies for the best use cases. And with a great sense of urgency. And I think that’s one of the frustrations sometimes not just in hardware, but across the board. Sometimes you see people trying to push technology, which isn’t ready yet or into an applicant in an area where there’s already a lead to some extent, and maybe you could say that mobility is one of those but it really is critical that we use the right technology in the right place. And beyond mobility, so much of the emissions come from Heavy Industries, as you’ve mentioned, shipping in terms of transportation aeroplanes we had recently on the podcast Fuel Cell powered flight. So there are so many different applications and again, perhaps just a flavour from yourself or around where you see hydrogen has the biggest advantages. And we’re going back to the sense of urgency where you see right now, both from an app to run, but more broadly, that hydrogen really can no step up and make a make a big impact.

Vaitea Cowan 15:21
Yeah, I think I, before answering this question, I’d like to also set the scene a little bit in regards to the industry today and what’s actually needed. And we need to first off, level out the playing fields, fossil fuels in green hydrogen, if fossil fuels keep being subsidised, then it’s going to be a really tough competition for green hydrogen. So first off, we need to stop subsidising fossil fuels and also create those mechanisms for demand of green hydrogen. Because I mean, hydrogen isn’t new. There’s a bunch of industries out there that are using hydrogen today, but they’re using grey hydrogen, right? They’re not using the green hydrogen. So as soon as these mechanisms start to be activated, then all these industrial players can switch from grey to green. They already have the business case for today, actually. So I would say that’s our lowest hanging fruit. All those industrials centres that are supporting refining, or power generation, fertiliser and steel production. All of these can already go into green hydrogen instead of grey.

David Hunt 16:29
Yeah, absolutely. Those industries are absolutely where there’s demand and and the possibility to do things right now.

Vaitea Cowan 16:34
Yeah, right. It’s just it’s the low hanging fruit. So we just got to grab those, move on to the next one that are going to be a bit harder to really decarbonize. And as you rightly mentioned in the beginning, you know, the whole shipment industry also has a huge potential to switch to green hydrogen, from the port areas for fuel bunkering, but also the port logistics and the transportation, I think we’re gonna see a lot of movement in this space. And that’ll be really interesting to follow the evolution of green hydrogen there. And now the pace at which it’s it picks up. And I think those are like the main ones that that we hear about. But I would also like to, to bring in some some others that, yeah, maybe we’re not really thinking about what would make a tremendous impact when we think about decarbonisation. And that would be in regards to cooking. So I mean, the air pollution from cooking is, I mean, if you look at the amounts of death, from air pollution, it’s pretty dramatic, right. And if we were to switch these gas stoves to clean cooking, and I’m thinking in regards to developing countries, I mean, the lives that we would save here would be incredible. And so I really think that hydrogen for cooking will also be an emerging market and application. And I really hope that there are more developments going into this space, because that’s something that we we shouldn’t forget. And I think there’s a huge opportunity there. And along the same kind of like alternative thinking, let’s say, I think hydrogen for decentralised energy production will also start to pick up and this is definitely a market that we are active in. And I think it will only grow in the coming years. Yeah,

David Hunt 18:22
yeah. There’s a couple of interesting points there, actually, that you touched on that. I mean, I’ve been a huge rant and rave about fossil fuel subsidies for many years. And that absolutely is something which should we continue or need to continue to push on because whether you call it a tax break, or whatever you want to call it, it’s a subsidy by another name, and that needs to needs to stop. But having said that, certainly having been involved in solar since the very early days, subsidy helped, and obviously from from wind perspective as well, subsidy helped in those early days to pump crime pump priming marketplace, and to get us to the point now where those are the cheapest forms of generation, regardless of subsidy or without subsidy. So is there something that you feel at the policy level that the hydrogen or that more specifically the green hydrogen industry could get from whether the EU and or other, you know, governments or areas where some form of policy or subsidy however you dress it up, could really support go meta experience curve of ramping up the technology and the scaling of the technology?

Vaitea Cowan 19:23
You know, I think we’re already at a really good start. In regards to the initiatives by the European Commission. There is the impulse to focus on green hydrogen, and I think this is where it needs to start. But I would still go back to my initial point that we need to stop subsidising fossil fuels and that’s what we that’s the biggest. That’s the biggest one right? As soon as we can, we can really kick those out, then we can really We started to think about, okay, what are going to be this mechanisms that will increase the demand for green hydrogen? So I think we’re the, the, the foundation is good, but we can’t have a good foundation without addressing the elephant in the room.

David Hunt 20:16
So absolutely, I’ve seen some really good sort of policy initiatives. And certainly we need to continue this drive to get away from fossil fuel subsidies. But what has been interesting and certain more recently is the price of carbon seems to have been slightly more realistic. But if we put an accurate and obvious price on carbon, and clearly that helps not just hydrogen but all forms of clean technology.

Vaitea Cowan 20:35
Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. I think it’s it’s a shift that needs to to happen. I think it’s we need to put this into motion.

David Hunt 20:43
Yeah, yeah. But it has been interesting to has been sort of quite a big increase in the European ETS scheme and the price of carbon recently, which is, which is good to see. Something I wanted also to move on to is, you know, as an organisation, you’ve expanded quite rapidly since 2017. You’ve recently announced, sort of plans for mass production of the electrolyzer, and you say, obviously, there’s some good news or some further news coming down the line. But so far, you’ve raised relatively small amounts, amounts of capital. And when you’re in a sort of hardware environment, or manufacturing robot that can be quite difficult to scale without funds. Do you have plans to raise more? or How have you been sort of efficient with what you have raised? So far, to get to the point you are already?

Vaitea Cowan 21:23
Sure. So I guess to start off with our, with our campus, right, which is where we are mass producing our electrolyzers starting in 2022. So we’re at the moment planning for the construction, and that’ll start in September. And we are seeing this site as the blueprint for the mass production of an ion exchange membrane electrolyzers. And what’s really exciting is that they the campus will be fully powered by renewables. And we’re really going for circular economy, not only from a product perspective, what is our product doing, it’s generating an alternative fuel, but also a new way that we are manufacturing the product itself and coining the the term lifecycle impact zero, which is really going from the very beginning to the end. Trying to minimise basically our co2 footprint and taking back the electrolyzer actually, at the end of its lifetime, instead of you know, polluting the world. So, this is our vision at the moment, for Zoubek, which is our navtor campus. And in regards to funding, I’m delighted to announce that anyone can help us in building our naptr campus because adapture is a publicly listed company now on the regulated market on the Frankfurt exchange. So innovator ag is, is, is our name, h2o is our ticker. So you can easily find us and, you know, going back to to your question, I know, I guess it’s, we are a hardware business, and we need to move fast. And this, you know, this is, um, do going public came much quicker than we had anticipated. But we realised that the classic route to the stock exchange, that takes a lot of time, and it’s expensive. And those two aspects are against our philosophy. Right, we are we move with urgency. And and so, you know, cost and time is ultimately what defines our success. So we looked at what our alternatives were, and this reverse merger, saved us capital, but also saved us a lot of time. So it was unusual, but so are we.

David Hunt 23:54
What about innovation, and I’ve always said that it’s as much about how you run the business and new business models as much as the technology, technological innovation, which is critical to success. Something about your experience as a as a sort of a marketer, and as a communications expert. No, it’s obviously sometimes in sort of a niche industry, it can be difficult to be heard. And that’s one challenge. And then other times you get to a situation where you are at the moment where there’s so much noise around greenheart and so much interest that again, it must be raised there sort of a different level of challenge or a different sort of type of challenge and how do you get clarity and how do you get your own message across when there is so much white noise around at the moment? And so how would you sort of say on a personal level in that part of your role that you’re able to or some of the challenges you’re facing and getting across? What are the facts and where your business does have its part to play when there is just so much stuff going on around you?

Vaitea Cowan 24:48
Yes, this is a big challenge. Definitely. I mean, as you said, right, there’s so much going on right now, around the topic of hydrogen that we have to learn very quickly what works for us and what doesn’t, in order for us to stay focus on our main goal to push the energy transition forward. So this means that we have to try a lot of things and act very quickly. And we have this motto, better to do than to do nothing at all. So this is also applying for us in marketing team, where we will do lots of prototypes and act quickly and be very agile and be lean. So I think I’m another, let’s say, a real fact is that we are talking to a very broad target group. And, you know, this means that we need to do several things in parallel, we need to raise awareness of the potential of green hydrogen, because of course, the bubble though it’s all about hydrogen, but not the rest of the world. We’re not there yet. So raising awareness, but also helping our customers and our partners widen their reach with hydrogen, and another, you know, big audience that we want to address our people that we might want to work with in the future. So we’re growing, and we’re looking for the right people to help us and in this regards to scaling up the A, so it’s a different different messages to different people. But I think what ties it all together, is our tone and our style. Our average age is 32 years old in the company. And so I think the ideas that come out, and the initiatives that come out, are, are quite impulsive, but also very authentic. So we try it all of things. And in the end, what you see is what you get, and it’s so far been working for us. Yeah,

David Hunt 26:53
yeah. No, I love that. And it’s really interesting. You make a point in there, which I talked to a good deal about our clients from, from her parents perspective about the importance of your messaging, and your marketing and your communications, not just in terms of your potential customer marketplace, but also from a potential hiring perspective and the messages that you send around your organisation for all bodies and how you adapt that message accordingly. But that’s interesting. This week, of course, we celebrated International Women’s Day. And again, at Hyperion, we work with a lot of our clients to help them to tap into a more diverse talent pool and to produce more diverse candidate shortlist. It’s easier in commercial roles than it is in engineering. But but not easy. Still, I would suggest. But although you’re a founder of women in green Hargett network, and I just would like some thoughts from yourself on how you address diversity as an actor, and more generally, how you feel the clean tech industry could be more welcoming, and more diverse sector.

Vaitea Cowan 27:47
Yeah, this is this is something that is definitely dear to my heart, I guess, as a woman, and also on this mission to inspire and to hire as many women as I can along my journey, I, I really tried to think of what what can we do, and I think it starts with creating a space. For women, I think creating this safe space, for example, we have a communication channel, that is called the women of an actor. And there we can share whatever we wish to share about, you know, whether it’s about a challenge that we’re facing, and, or whether it’s just a mundane question, but just to know that there is the space where only women are, I think just creates this. Now this this open dialogue and vulnerability that we can also have with all of our colleagues, but it’s just creating the space, I think, really, yeah, helps and facilitates the, the conversation in the work the work environment, let’s say so let’s say start by creating a space for women virtual and also in person. But this is also the role of the women in green hydrogen network to really bring together all these women, to showcase them and to say, look at all of your peers, we are here and we can help each other, we can be your mentor, and we can, you know, help all of all of each other really move forward. So I think another point is also giving opportunities, giving more opportunities to women, I think it’s it’s a pretty basic one, but I think it’s always something in regards to hiring for example, that, you know, think think of how you can really give them an opportunity to participate in the mission. And think of diversity and also not also in terms of gender. You know, I think diversity is is so many things and the more diversity you have in your team, the better your ideas will be. So really try to widen your your perception of what diversity Yeah,

David Hunt 29:42
absolutely.

Vaitea Cowan 29:44
And I think yeah, it’s it’s so important. And I think another one it’s a simple one, but I find it works really well is I’m in a meeting. If you haven’t heard from from your women colleagues, just ask Ask them what they think about. And you’ll be surprised by what they think. And they may not have, you know, risen their voice, but then as a as a leader, then it’s your responsibility to hear out all the voices, or at least give the chance for the voice to be heard. And so I think I would encourage as many people to, to reach out and ask a What do you think about it, because there will be value there. And I would encourage the sign. And in regards to the, how can we, as the clean tech sector really help the new generations and also women and men enter this, this field. And from our experience, we are we realised that we need to bring everyone together, right. It’s about creating the space creating this time creating opportunity for people passionate for us about green hydrogen to come together. And this is where the idea of generation hydrogen, our online event on May 19, came together to showcase these existing technologies and applications of green hydrogen, these crazy idea Some of us have on green hydrogen, and to bring all those people together, from all age ranges from all over the world to talk about it to understand what the challenges are to see Do we know enough about this technology? and to hopefully, initiate those conversations and light up some some ideas on pushing forward? Green hydrogen, and also finding more talent to join our team?

David Hunt 31:34
Yeah, yeah, absolutely no happy to obviously post a link to that event on the episode page to anyone’s listening. We’ll put that on the episode page for you to to have a look at but I think that’s really interesting. One of the things you you started with there on the diversity front, echoes, something I listened to actually on another podcast that some of my team organised her sustainability and was independent lady called hadden sesqui, who’s a scientist and presenter and a real passion passionate advocate for for things clean. And she was talking about, I think the phrase is something like it’s not enough to open the door, you’ve got to rearrange the furniture inside and that kind of thing around making that welcoming space, whether it’s for gender diversity, or more broad and more obvious forms of diversity, right? The way across the board is making making it welcome not just saying, hey, the doors open.

Vaitea Cowan 32:20
I love that.

David Hunt 32:21
It’s good to just stuck with me here. So that’s another podcast has sustainability run run by my my colleagues that focuses and trying to light on brilliant women in clean tech and all that doing so? Yeah, thanks for your thoughts on that. We’ve shared some good time together of it. And I really enjoyed that. And thanks for your thoughts so far. I always like to close out with looking at some of the things you touched on a few right at the very beginning, actually. But some of the things have inspired you along your way, whether that’s books or podcasts or thought leaders or whatever it might have been that we all know that can be challenging out there at times. So are the things that you return to for inspiration when things are tough or things that started doing on your journey a little bit?

Vaitea Cowan 33:01
Books are great. So many books are started and I think reinventing organisations is a really interesting one in regards to thinking about how you how you structure your team and how much freedom autonomy you give them. So definitely recognise, recognise, recommend this one. But also principles by Ray Dalio. One that I absolutely love, and keep taking notes about it and always refer to I’m also currently listening to all weekend, save by Ayana, Elizabeth and Dr. Katherine Wilkinson. And it’s, it’s a really beautiful, listen, strongly recommended about climate change, and also more the role of women in the energy transition. And yeah, the latest one that I’m listening to, which I find quite quite entertaining, is an economics and economics walks into a brothel, by Alison tiger. And yeah, it’s just super interesting. He talks a lot about risks and more on like the, you know, the the perception of risk in our lives and how we how we calculate risk in our lives, versus how we take financial risks. So it’s a it’s great, I love it. So

David Hunt 34:17
what I certainly post point people again, on the episode page to those links, always, I’d love to ask this question, because it’s so fascinating, but it also does me no good because I end up reading. But I always read any books anyway. But I kind of always have a backlog of books that have been recommended on the podcast and get my get my way around to them eventually, but principles was brilliant. I’ve enjoyed that reason. And that’s come up a few times on the podcast, but thanks for sharing those, as I say, well, we’ll share links to those on the on the episode page. But listen, it’s been great to spend some time with you. We look forward to announcements to come and congratulations on the success so far have an actor and yeah, let’s see how the next few years go for us.

Vaitea Cowan 34:53
Thank you so much, David. It was a pleasure of being on the show.

David Hunt 35:00
Thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed that episode. One of the challenges we all face at the moment locked down of course is home broadband dropping in and out from time to time so I hope that didn’t spoil your enjoyment of of the episode. Next week we’ll return to energy storage enter the USA. I hope you’ll join me that for the next episode.