Monica Collings – Cleantech Chair & NED

David Hunt (00:01.606)
Hello Monica, welcome to I think we’re now on the 151st episode of Leads in Clean Tech. We’ve spoken for a good many years, but it’s great to have you on the podcast at last, so welcome.

Monica Collings (00:11.704)
Thank you David, it’s a pleasure to be with you.

David Hunt (00:14.992)
So there’s a huge amount that I want to impact. Probably we could do about four podcast episodes, but we’ll try and keep it to the one. And one of the reasons I was very keen to get you on board, Monica, was that we had to search from, there were probably about two areas from a candidate perspective that we asked most questions around. And that’s how do you transfer from a corporate career to a startup environment? And how do transition from a executive career into a portfolio career?

And you’ve obviously been a mixture of all of those things. So I certainly want to unpack some of that as well as much else. But perhaps we can start in a traditional way of just going a little bit of an overview of your career to date, if you would.

Monica Collings (00:51.81)
Yeah, of course, happy to. Well, most recently, I suppose I’ve been working, clearly, as a board director, working both as a chair, non exec and in some strategic advisory positions, largely in the energy space, infrastructure and utilities, and all connected to net zero and

decarbonisation and those roles are varied. Some of them are private equity backed because growth is actually a really big motivator for me in terms of my ambition and where I see the most value that I can contribute. But also with mentoring CEOs and that comes from having been a CEO through the energy crisis, leading energy retailers. So I led Vattenfels, UK retailer and then ESBs at SoEnergy.

challenger brand through the crisis. Before that, most of my career has been in largely commercial roles. I’ve worked across property, retail, home improvement, automotive, so lots of adjacents to the energy transition. And in all sorts of commercial positions, market sectors that included things like product development or international expansion.

David Hunt (02:06.788)
Mm-hmm.

Monica Collings (02:09.258)
go to market strategies, all of those kinds of things. So really quite varied and across a number of different types of organisations, some of which were startup based and some of them being more established, larger corporates.

David Hunt (02:25.21)
Yeah, yeah. No, there was, there’s lots. You’re obviously CEO with Vattenfall and then obviously ESB into, so during that really challenging time. So maybe that’s a good cue to pick up on some of those aspects of change. Cause also we’re in quite a volatile environment at the moment for various different reasons. So how was it to lead a team and lead a business, quite a sizable business through that really, you know, almost one of, hopefully one of a kind kind of environment with COVID.

Monica Collings (02:42.06)
Yeah.

David Hunt (02:53.744)
So how was it to actually lead a team through that and what impacts do you think were learned from a leadership perspective, but also perhaps lessons that we can move into the present sort of volatility that we’re all experiencing from an energy perspective?

Monica Collings (02:54.115)
Yeah.

Monica Collings (03:08.43)
Yeah, I think increasingly we are operating in what we call this sort of VUCA environment or VUCA environment where we’ve got more volatility, more uncertainty, more complexity and more ambiguity in the way in which operations are navigating things. And particularly, you know, we have the energy crisis, cost of living crisis, changes in government. So this sort of geopolitical landscape makes it a little bit more challenging. And I think, you know, if there’s one thing that investors hate, it’s uncertainty. And we all know that.

David Hunt (03:36.194)
Absolutely.

Monica Collings (03:37.87)
But from an operational perspective, what you’re trying to do is essentially flex resilience in organisations. And how I think you do that best is by having a strong culture where there is alignment, where organisations understand that there is a common sense of purpose and that people are really clear about the role in which they have within delivery of that purpose.

It doesn’t mean that you can’t be agile and it doesn’t mean that you can’t flex or change, but at its core, you have to have clarity and clear communication that enables you to take people on that journey with you. And I think my lessons from the energy crisis that, you know, it was incredibly challenging for not just leaders, but also for people on the frontline who were accepting phone calls from people in.

desperate situations, know, more than 10 % of the country was in fuel poverty and struggling to pay their energy bills. And that translates into a lot of fear and people looking for answers and they just weren’t any. And at a time where responding to, you know, delivering government schemes that break neck speed and trying to keep the business operating in a way that can sustain

David Hunt (04:31.129)
Mm-hmm.

Monica Collings (04:57.24)
more operational burden and particularly that customer led burden, I think was a real test on the way in which the organization had grown and built because it had gone, if you remember, that there was a merger between ESB Energy and SoEnergy and the two businesses came together very, very quickly.

David Hunt (05:03.152)
Yeah.

Monica Collings (05:21.71)
And then also all the dynamic with Putin messing around with energy prices started to happen almost immediately once that integration had happened. there wasn’t much respite for the organization. And then you throw into, right, we’re to go and deal with an energy crisis for 12, 18 months and, and. So we talk about resilience as if it’s a thing, but really for me, it’s about actually how we bounce back.

David Hunt (05:30.298)
Yeah.

Monica Collings (05:50.311)
and the way in which our organisations are structured and the culture with which we are bound that helps us to build that resilience.

David Hunt (05:55.3)
Yeah.

Culture is an interesting thing. We work extensively with a lot of companies around that element of culture. And a lot of those companies are startups and that in itself has its challenges, but it’s a little bit easier to communicate and to maintain a culture when there’s 15, 20, 40 of you than when there’s thousands of you. So as the CEO of a sizable organization, those things which might seem relatively simple in terms of really clear messaging, really clear…

North Star purpose of what the business is all about and the kind of the behaviors that are expected within the organization. How do you instigate, maintain and filter that down from that CEO position of a large organization when you’re far removed in many respects from a lot of the people that are ultimately reporting to you?

Monica Collings (06:45.966)
I think the best CEOs aren’t far removed in some respects because what they do is remain connected to the pulse of what’s going on within the business. So I was very visible when I was the CEO. I was very approachable.

and held a lot of sessions, my sort of on the couch sessions as I called them, lots of communicating until I vomit, which is a bit of a mantra to say, actually, I’m just going to over communicate because I don’t think it’s ever really very possible to over communicate, particularly in situations of crisis. Culture for me is about how we

David Hunt (07:10.317)
you

Monica Collings (07:23.06)
or have a common understanding, shared understanding, shared behaviors, shared values, that we have expectations that are clear, that we understand what good and what on track looks like, but also what off track looks like. That the rituals and cues support that. And also the way that we reward and perform, reward the good performance based on that culture underlines the way in which we then behave and have our values.

For me as a leader, you make decisions and the decisions that you make have to be aligned to your values and behaviors. And if they see, if your organization and your employees see that from the top, it cascades and it reinforces the fact that actually this is how everyone should behave. I think in those moments, it’s really important to have the ability to give live feedback, to build that into that.

cultural framework and for it to not be, you know, we talk about actually cultural fit. I kind of feel like actually we should create organisations where inclusion is at the core, most important, so that you can come in, you can be yourself, you can bring your best version of yourself to work, you can succeed, however you see fit based on what that organisation can do for you.

But the cultural aspect of it should allow that to happen. And that is a lot about the leaders that you have within your business. You have to have the right leadership structure.

David Hunt (08:55.044)
Yeah. Yeah.

And that’s almost the double challenge of moving through crises, because one degree, by definition, you need to be having that kind of strategic view and looking ahead at what’s going on and being aware of sort of the broader economic and sort of other challenges that are there. But at the same time, from what you’re saying, it’s also literally getting down into the weeds and on the sofa and having dialogue with people. So that must have been and must be really challenging for leaders, all levels really, to try and maintain both the strategic sort of visionary outlook, but also then

Monica Collings (09:07.502)
Mm.

David Hunt (09:28.314)
be down close enough to hear and see what’s going on on the ground.

Monica Collings (09:31.438)
I think what’s really interesting is that when you’re the CEO, it can be quite a lonely job because you are the only one of your kind and also you are responsible for everything from managing shareholders, stakeholders, setting the strategic direction, know, being the figurehead publicly facing as well in certain circumstances. And yet if…

David Hunt (09:36.838)
Mm-hmm.

Monica Collings (09:54.264)
the toilets are broken and you’ve got massive flood issues or know, forced measure or whatever it might be. You kind of, get all the emails about that as well and everything in between, you are responsible for everything from the bottom line to, you know, making sure that people are accessing properties in the right way and all sorts of things. And it’s such an amazing.

role. think I always call it a very privileged position. I think that CEOs have an amazing opportunity to influence the career direction of so many people, that they have the ability to shape, you know, government policy, regulation, influence, big thing, big decisions, big social societal issues. But it is lonely. And I think that’s where when you come to look at board structures and having effective boards, if they are

created in the right way. They can be incredibly powerful in providing that support to a CEO as well as the scrutiny and challenge that needs to exist.

David Hunt (10:56.356)
Yeah, yeah, and a lot of that obviously is what you’re doing at the moment. Just brought me back to a conversation had with another CEO a while ago saying that essentially as a CEO, nobody brings to you the easy problems. They’re always the ones that everybody’s kicked down the road and everybody sort of thought, I can’t deal with that. We’re not wanting to touch that. And they all find their way to your path or to your door, which I guess reflects a little bit what you said there. It’s not the easy stuff that ends up in your doorstep.

Monica Collings (11:19.286)
Well, not even, you don’t even always get the nice stuff. Good stuff happens and no one tells you because they either assume that you know, or you’re so busy sorting other things out that you’re too busy. And I think this is where I love schemes like reverse mentoring schemes, where you actually have people from, I used to have a reverse mentor from the call center who would meet with me on a monthly basis and give me a reality check. And it was just a really useful way of understanding, of course, you know, different age.

David Hunt (11:22.566)
Yeah.

David Hunt (11:39.822)
All right.

Monica Collings (11:47.148)
generations and what was going on for people within the business, but also what are they seeing that I’m not seeing? And what do I need to know? And I would always start with, tell me what you think I need to know that I probably don’t.

David Hunt (12:00.274)
Yeah, mean that walk in the floor is incredibly important. Lots of great leaders have written and talked about it. But it is a really tough thing to do on a day-to-day basis when you do have all of these issues to contend with, all of these problems to your door and all of the navigating the ship to deal with as well. The reverse mentoring is interesting. So perhaps you could share a little bit more, not just on that, but in terms of how that culture within different

generational aspects of people at different stages of their career, different ages, and different levels of responsibilities. But it all can contribute to the well-being and to the success of an organization. But it’s not easy to set those things up from experience and from, again, some of the senior HR people that sort of often manage kind of these things. It’s not always easy to get everybody’s buy-in and to get people to trust that it’s a genuine desire from the CEO or from leadership rather than a…

Monica Collings (12:41.166)
Mm.

David Hunt (12:59.398)
you know, a tick-box exercise, which often is something that spans around for a lot of companies.

Monica Collings (13:04.174)
I think you have to demonstrate the value of it because it’s a value exchange. You’re giving your time in exchange for valuable insight, essentially, and something has to come out of it. has to create a moment of clarity or an opportunity to develop something that’s going to lead to something bigger. And sometimes it’s not even that actually. You have a conversation. It can be a really small thing, but a really impactful thing. We have lots of articles that have been written about Gen Z and

you know, how lazy they are and how they don’t want to come into the office and all of these misnomers around hybrid work, etc. You know, and I think generationally, the workplace is evolving, it changes by as generations go through and we have people coming into the office post COVID in a way that

has in itself evolved and changed the nature of what work means for them. So if we try and force upon them a workplace that has not evolved with them, they won’t be happy and they will vote with their fee and some organisations will be better at it than others. And those organisations that are startups that are being created by this next generation will be more innovative and open and creative. And that’s not to say that everyone needs to work from home and never come

into the office and never see each other. But actually what we do is redefine what coming into the office means. Does it mean we come in and sit on a team’s call for eight hours of the day and ignore each other and only just have a cup of coffee every two hours or whatever it is when we’re past each other in the corridor? No, people are wise to it actually if they’re going to come in for meaningful interactions. And how much of the world of work

is based on relationships and socialising and networking and all of those things that perhaps through COVID, people that entered the workforce during that time experienced in a different way.

David Hunt (15:07.854)
Yeah, I think that’s one of the big challenges. In terms of the energy transition in which we’re both involved, there’s so much to be done and clearly it’s a fast growth industry. We need talent in our sector and we need it at all levels and that includes, of course, entry level. And that is one of the challenges, I think, when you’re bringing people into an organization that haven’t had the experience of working in a…

Monica Collings (15:25.55)
Mm.

David Hunt (15:32.846)
in a corporate environment or in a social environment where there may be various different levels of politics, whatever might happen to exist. you learn these things when you and I have learned those things through various parts of our careers. But it’s really tough, I think, for younger people who haven’t perhaps been through that to work from home and miss a lot of those social cues and business cues that you don’t get in the office. So I’ve certainly, think, the last two or three years switched from a

Monica Collings (15:42.818)
Hmm?

David Hunt (16:00.368)
from an entirely remote to a much more hybrid way that we have within Hyperion. But it’s also something we’ve been talking about and working with a lot of our clients on is finding that right balance, what fits for you and your team. But yeah, it’s absolutely an issue as you say around how do we equip people for environments and they do have to change. It’s funny, I started my career in Dixon Stores Group head office in London and I used to go home at the end of every night, thinking of smoke because at that time,

Monica Collings (16:10.466)
Mmm.

David Hunt (16:27.366)
everybody in the office smoked, not everybody, but majority of people smoked. It was like a two-tier office. It was like fog at the top and you could sit down at the bottom. And now you’d think that’s just so incredibly impossible almost, but it happened. So that sort of, I know there’s different reasonings, but big changes do happen and workplaces do have to evolve.

Monica Collings (16:28.994)
Yep, yeah. Yeah.

Monica Collings (16:43.971)
Yeah.

Monica Collings (16:47.566)
Yeah, I I started my career in advertising and we always had white wine Fridays, you you’d start at lunchtime and you’d carry on all afternoon. I it very, very rarely happens now, I think. But I think you raise a really interesting point around role modelling there because we do look up to people that we work with and we learn those cues from them. And it’s really important that actually you have that connection with people so that you can understand.

the potential opportunities that exist for, particularly for women who are navigating the workplace and trying to find their way in the world. And, you know, obviously I served as the only female chief executive in that energy crisis running a domestic retailer. And it, again, you add another layer of loneliness and complexity to it because you are marginalized in a lot of conversations because you’re the only woman, you are the only one in the room. And so you are

very aware that whether it’s intended or not, you almost have the whole weight of womankind on your shoulders because you’re there and everyone’s looking at you and all of these women that are aspiring to be female leaders are going, well actually she can do it, that means I can do it. And we then talk about things like limiting beliefs, imposter syndrome, all of that stuff and what holds us back quite often is ourselves rather than

David Hunt (18:06.886)
Mm.

Monica Collings (18:12.974)
based on the environments that we’re in and the circumstances we find ourselves in. so making sure that we send the elevator back down, that we provide support and opportunities for people who follow us. And that’s not just women, but everybody, but particularly those who are more marginalized and demonstrating that it’s possible. And I just find it really interesting that even though it was never my intention to sort of…

become a bit of a role model. sort of have accidentally just because I was there and people needed that. And so for all leaders and all CEOs, I would say the world is watching, the next generation is watching and they’re looking at how you are making decisions and how you are behaving and they are learning from.

David Hunt (19:03.13)
Yeah, it’s powerful, say, and it’s a position that comes with a great deal of responsibility. But privilege, as you say, but also responsibility.

Monica Collings (19:08.044)
Yeah.

Monica Collings (19:12.226)
Yeah, it’s like Spider-Man.

David Hunt (19:13.798)
Let’s jump slightly back into the energy transition that drives and motivates us both and the businesses that we work for. Let’s take view of having been the CEO of utilities on the retail side of the energy side. We still have the war in Ukraine and we still have other issues around energy. We’ve got more so now with what’s going on in the US that’s having an impact.

Monica Collings (19:23.299)
Mmm.

David Hunt (19:41.296)
How do you see or what do you see as the biggest challenges for the energy, certainly in Europe, so should we focus on for the moment of the energy transition and the evolution of the industry as a What are the things that you’re seeing that are most challenging to you in the businesses that you chair or advise?

Monica Collings (19:58.702)
Well, I mean, we’ve talked about the uncertainty and that’s not helpful. So I won’t go there again. But I think there are other things for us to consider, which are, I mean, there are many, but in terms of how we can effectively deliver on the ambition that we have, which is Clean Power 2030 and then Net Zero, sort of slightly longer term is, we have to move very quickly from a position where we

stop talking about how we’re going to do it and actually just get on and do it and start executing against it. I think that’s like the fundamental and it breaks down into a number of things and we start to see movement on that you know like the connections reforms that were announced yesterday and how we make sure that we have green skills and that we fill the gap that currently exists to enable us to have access to talent because supply chain capabilities and how that

you know impacts our ability to deliver is important. I think that there is also when we look at the opportunity so much, so much because we have amazing innovative businesses popping up that are solving the problems that the world has around flexibility, connection. We have you know vulnerable customers who

desperately need solutions that enable them not to be left behind in a just and fair energy transition. When I look at the boards that I sit on, a lot of them are in those supply chains delivering support services, whether that be across planning consents or environmental cleanups, and their services are growing and they’re in demand because this is a sector that is

booming. There is so much potential for what we have here and for the UK to be a progressive, you know, leader. It is a leader, but to be a global leader in this field and the world is watching on what we’re doing. And I find that incredibly exciting. And I think for people who are looking at meaningful careers, the energy space is a place where there are so many opportunities for them to come and have career defining moments.

David Hunt (21:58.415)
Yeah.

David Hunt (22:17.19)
Yeah. What do you find on that? I saw a search from people coming to us and they have a very clear view on what they want and we go and find that for them and that’s one and good. But for the industry as a whole, need more talent from more spaces with more experiences coming into the pool. And it is frustration from times when clients say, we won’t look at somebody from a telecoms or from an oil and gas or from whatever periphery, sunset industry, whatever you want to call it. Hugely frustrating because there are great talents there.

Monica Collings (22:37.08)
Hmm.

David Hunt (22:45.592)
again, have you any thoughts on how we can or how the industry should be a more welcoming place to people from outside sectors? Because we need them more. The challenge is big and the opportunity is huge, but none of it happens if we don’t have the right people in place. It’s my mentor, obviously, but yeah.

Monica Collings (22:54.19)
Hmm.

Monica Collings (23:02.868)
No, exactly. Absolutely. Let me share two examples, David. The fact that I didn’t come from energy and I think energy is hugely complicated. I’ve spent what, eight, nine years or something in the sector now and there are still parts of it that I really just have no idea about and I’m constantly learning about it. And what I do understand though,

is customer really, really well, probably better than a lot of the people that originally designed this sector, who were engineers that tried to get to a sort of Porsche, Lamborghini standard of solid gold, you know, engineering brilliance. And that is needed too. But we’re moving from a world where consumers used energy as an essential service as part of a one-way transaction to a world where

they will become prosumers. There will be a two way flow of the relationship and the way in which the energy system works in the future. And if we look at lessons from things like open banking, you know, there is an opportunity for us to really think about how we use the talents to create a sector that can be much more customer centric. I think that’s why the boards that I sit on, not

David Hunt (24:08.742)
Mm-hmm.

Monica Collings (24:24.376)
They’re not at all customer in terms of end user organizations, but I’ve been invited onto those boards because there is a recognition that having that insight and deeply understanding the needs of customers, even if they are in a B2B or service space is super important. And it is how organizations will win because it’s all about behaviors and understanding fantastic communications and stakeholder engagements. That’s sort of first point.

I think the second point just to come to technology is I think technology will have a really big role to play and do a lot of the heavy lifting in this sector in the future. It’s already starting, but I think moving forward, if we can get this right, there’s a lot of talk about what AI can do in automation, but we have to have the fundamentals in place in order for that to be leveraged in terms of benefit. And so I’m really thinking about, let’s not think about AI as these

David Hunt (24:58.896)
Mm-hmm.

Monica Collings (25:22.424)
big strategies and write white papers and all the rest of it. Actually, it’s a really fantastic tool for us to accelerate the work that we’re doing towards net zero, do the heavy lifting, bring everyone on the journey and find ways to do this in a more equitable way. so I think for organisations thinking about how they can get the talent they need and also align that with their ambition from a tech perspective.

It’s about making sure that we are reaching into areas that have already benefited from tech advancements and organisations that really understand customers.

David Hunt (26:03.054)
Yeah, yeah, which is fundamentally the case, it? And that’s sort of whatever you refer to as user experience, customer experience is essential in every aspect. And I think sometimes that’s a challenge for some of the sort of startups that you perhaps cross paths with. And we certainly do is that often they’re founded by hugely intelligent engineers or computer scientists who are essential for building these products and services and solutions. But again, the challenge is if nobody in the leadership team has that.

customer experience or the user experience from that perspective, it can be very challenging to actually grow the business. that’s again, part of that diversity of first of all of the leadership team and an executive level, but then obviously the support that people like yourself and others give from an advisor and from a board level. I think that’s something that’s essential. Perhaps Lee just segues us nicely into looking at sort of the board roles that perhaps you’re involved with. So leading into that.

Going back to one of my original points or questions, how and when did you decide to transition to this sort of plural environment from you could have jumped in and been a CEO somewhere else, no doubt, but at what point did you decide, actually, I want to transfer my skills and my experiences and have a different way of life, a different career for myself. How and where did you go about that?

Monica Collings (27:16.674)
Mm.

Monica Collings (27:21.486)
I suppose when I came towards the end of my executive career, when I was making that decision, first of all, I’d been through the energy crisis and it was pretty tiring. I I was working very long hours, most weekends and like a lot of the CEOs at the time. So it wasn’t exclusively me, but I hadn’t seen a lot of my family during that period and was sort of trying to reconcile that in my mind. How could I be?

more available to them, but still feel fulfilled with the work that I was doing. That was sort of a part of the consideration. The second part, you know, that I love work. I really love work. And I was offered lots of very interesting CEO opportunities and talked to lots of organizations about things that I could have said yes to absolutely all of them, done all of them just because they were so interesting. And at some point, you know, I thought actually, maybe I could just take all of this experience that I have.

and use it in a different way to work with a diverse range of organizations so that they can all benefit from me. And rather than viewing it as me working across a portfolio of businesses, I thought, about if I viewed it as this is my portfolio, this is what I offer, and then organizations can benefit from having me work with them and help them and support them. And I really wanted to stop doing

and be more, be less hands-on. I think that that was a big shift for me, so that I could then really help have a bigger impact, but in a different way. And I, yeah, sorry, go on.

David Hunt (29:01.462)
That’s quite a challenge, I think, when you’ve been so hands-on and by necessity and involved in almost every decision as the CEO, just suddenly, from again, from people that we speak to and we’ve worked with, to find yourself in an environment where you have to be, not entirely hands-on, of course, there are times when you still have to get your sleeves rolled up in this style, even when you’re an advisor, as you well know, but generally you have to be much more through rather than on in those sort of environments. Was that something that you…

Monica Collings (29:09.614)
Hmm. Hmm.

Monica Collings (29:20.888)
Mm. Mm.

David Hunt (29:30.142)
you might have intellectually acknowledged, but in day to day, did it take time to really grasp that or to define that as second nature?

Monica Collings (29:39.278)
I think you do it in different ways in different types of organisations. I definitely think you’re right that in startups, you find yourself a little bit more involved. And so there is a bit of a blend. Also, when you do advisory work, you’re often thrown into, you know, either work on an acquisition and see how the business plan is being executed and poke around a little bit and you get licensed to do that a bit more. I say,

I suppose I’m the kind of Ned that doesn’t just turn up for the biscuits. I don’t just come to the board meeting and eat the biscuits. I like to connect to the organisation. I like to go and visit the sites, put my wellies on and go and see what people are doing and understand what the experience is like for employees and colleagues and stakeholders. So we really know how that business works because it’s very easy for people who are perhaps less operationally connected or have not had that experience in their career in the same way.

to just look at a set of numbers and make assumptions about what the business is doing. so I think where I saw my unique value proposition, the ability to use my skills is having been the CEO and done that and really understand what is going on for that CEO that sat there on the other side of the table where I sat and the conversations I was having, I almost…

David Hunt (30:39.142)
Yeah.

Monica Collings (31:02.744)
preempt what they’re going to say before they say it. I can see things coming down the road before they’ve even hit them. And that can be really valuable because I can just ask the right questions that perhaps get them to think about something in a slightly different way. I also think there’s a really interesting dynamic where we often think that a lot of the work that boards do in that boardroom is the be all and end all. For me, a lot of the work

David Hunt (31:16.699)
Yeah.

Monica Collings (31:28.952)
that I think has the biggest impact is outside of the boardroom, the conversations with the exec team, know, who from the exec team rings you or asks you for advice outside of the regular board structure, who is the one that sends you something to pre-read before you go into a meeting so that they want your perspectives, they want to understand how they walk something into the room.

whether it’s setting up a customer advisory group or doing some work on advancing ESG or something that’s specific that is going on at that time, addressing an attrition issue, whatever it might be, because you’ve got that experience to offer. And why would an organization not leverage the benefit of all of that experience that you have? I think that’s really powerful.

David Hunt (32:20.198)
Have you experienced, and again, I’ve come across this a couple of times with companies I’ve worked with, with investors into their portfolio companies where the executive team, the founders, again, I guess intellectually acknowledged that there’s a benefit to having a board, but then find that quite difficult to deal with the fact that there are some wiser heads in the room and some people that can really add value and can challenge because that’s part of the role, right? You have to challenge in the right way, of course, but you do have to challenge, call things out where you see it.

Monica Collings (32:46.05)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

David Hunt (32:50.022)
Again, just wondering if you’ve got any experiences. It’s a learning curve for the board person when you start on this career and you’ve your first one or two boards, I guess. Good to perhaps hear again how you sort of, was it actually expected to be when you started to find yourself in those board positions? But also again, from the flip side of how you find or have you seen founders who’ve struggled to come to terms with having someone like yourself that has that wealth of experience around the table and see it.

Monica Collings (33:00.206)
Hmm.

David Hunt (33:18.352)
perhaps more as a threat than an advantage.

Monica Collings (33:22.124)
definitely think it works best when someone is open to having that relationship and putting the time into building that relationship. having the support and that scrutiny there.

but recognising the value of it. And sometimes that comes over time. We know that organisations need different types of CEOs, different types of structures, different types of leaders at different points in their career, right? And someone who might have led the business through startup might not be right for the next stage of the journey in the same way as older, sort of older, more established businesses. And needs change and people change along with those needs. So I think all of that is something that

boards have to consider some of the you know most important decisions that boards are responsible for is succession planning and making sure that you have the right people leading the business. I think when I reflect on board compositions and the types of individuals I really value and celebrate diversity because I think you can quite quickly get into group thinking if you have a lot of people in the room that are like you particularly where you have investment directors

And I say this to all the private equity firms that I work with, but they’re all data junkies. They all love the detail. They’ll all go down rabbit holes because they see something and pick something and then that’s it. And then there’s a deep dive requested on it. Brilliant. know, all of these things are very valuable and important, but having someone in the room who isn’t thinking in that way that sees things in a different way, if you’re open to that challenge and not all organizations want that actually. And I think

Again, it depends. Are you at the early stage of having just acquired a business? Are you midway through? you at the end where perhaps you’re trying to strip out cost and squeeze as much value out of it? You know, there are different types of conversations that you want to be having and that you need to have. And in that sense, if you go through that process and you recognise what it is you’re looking for, if I think in the same way, David, and you’ll know this better than I, but if you put in, for example, a first time CEO,

Monica Collings (35:32.61)
the support they’re going to need is going to be different to someone who’s exited four or five businesses and is on another turn or a CEO that has been in a business for eight or nine years and might be thinking about what they’re going to do next. And I just think that the best boards are reflective of those situations and acknowledging where the problems are within the business. What are they trying to address? Because

If the business hasn’t delivered on its performance for a number of years and you’re really trying to get to the hub and sort of the crux of the problem, then vanity projects are not going to be welcome to be discussed at the board. It’s just not, it’s just not the topic that is going to resonate most across, across the members.

David Hunt (36:20.228)
Yeah, now I love working on board roles because again that balance across the board is so fundamental to the success of a business, think, know, touching on diversity, but not just sort of gender diversity, which we will touch on, but diversity of thought, socioeconomic diversity, all kinds of things that different experiences that are all fundamental to giving a really rounded board. And one which is, and we work most on independent chairs as you you want to, where you are exactly that. So it’s easier to get on the side of the CEO when you’re not.

Monica Collings (36:34.189)
Yes.

David Hunt (36:49.54)
You know, clearly you’ve got investors to please and quite often it’s an investor that instigates the hire, but still you’re an independent chair and you have all sides on your mind essentially as you’re going through these things. But then there’s the makeup of the rest of the board as well. And I think that’s something where diverse is really important and clearly there are some things which are obviously amiss.

more obvious to spot things like gender or ethnic diversity because just visually it’s easier to see but there’s lots of gaps I think among sort of social and economic backgrounds and different industry experiences that we touched on much earlier on. is really important to you and we’ll touch on the powerful woman thing if we may in a moment but just again how do you see the broader definition of diversity and its importance and how do you see that starting to play out in the industry? Are we making any progress on this or is it…

Obviously, lot of the numbers are still not very positive when it comes to certainly gender diversity. How are you seeing this? we making ground? And if not, what do we need to be doing about it?

Monica Collings (37:51.17)
So as a general observation, when you look at the numbers, like progress has been made and we definitely have more awareness and visibility of women in leadership positions and growing into middle management as well. And we see commitments from organizations to achieving gender diversity, gender equality, diversity, however you prefer to frame it, but also closing the gender pay gap importantly, because

You know, we’ve been reporting on this for a really long time, but I suspect that we’re probably at a point where all of the low hanging fruit has been exhausted. And now it’s the really tough stuff that’s going to make the difference. We’ve got five years to 2030. You know, the powerful women’s energy leaders coalition have committed to achieving 40 % representation by that point. We’ve got five years to go. How will…

David Hunt (38:45.616)
Not long is it?

Monica Collings (38:47.01)
How are we going to do it? I mean, there is so much opportunity if you look at the green skills gap and the number of employees that are needed to come into organisations in order to deliver the ambition that we have for Net Zero. It is entirely possible for us to take this and invest in growing our own talent, bringing talent in from other sectors, know, promoting from within and defining succession planning.

I actually, my personal view, and this is not necessarily supported, and there are reports of this, I think we do a reasonable job getting women in, and then we struggle with holding onto them. think retention of women is probably the bigger issue at this point, because there was a very big drive, let’s get lots of women into the sector, but then our environments haven’t necessarily evolved to enable them to stay, whether that is flexibility, whether that is

policies around, know, pro, what I would call pro-women policies that help women at varying stages who might be experiencing different career interruptions with the support and help that they need to be able to move forward and have a meaningful career on an enduring basis. We lose far too many women at the age of experiencing menopause because they just decide that that’s enough. And it doesn’t have to be.

And when I think about some of the work that I’ve done previously, in particular around understanding where opportunities are, there are so many untapped talent pools, even for, you know, women who might not necessarily be available full-time or might have opportunity to do a few hours here and there, or want to engage on a weekend, for example, in call centres, things like that, you know, why are we prohibiting accessing these sort of talent pools?

on the basis that it’s different or it’s a little bit harder for our organisations to move to. But yeah, the benefits are there.

David Hunt (40:43.877)
Yeah.

David Hunt (40:48.71)
It was, I was privileged to speak at a moderator session at the Powerful Women event in London a couple of years ago. I think at the time there was a report around this retention issue. And again, it always staggers me that A, sort of, by definition, when you’re not bringing the full range of people into the industry, you’re narrowing the talent pool. But then to bring people in and to lose them, think, regardless of gender, but specifically on gender, when you bring great people into business and you lose all that experience and lose all those skills and lose all of that.

Monica Collings (40:57.902)
Hmm.

David Hunt (41:16.89)
that stuff you’ve invested essentially in those careers to let it walk out the door through because it’s just easier perhaps to do that than there is to create environments or the flexible ways of doing things that are required to keep people in roles and obviously you should say women in particular in this instance.

Monica Collings (41:35.384)
think it’s really interesting when you start looking at the data and you actually start putting a cost on attrition and say for every 1 % that you can improve that, what does that do to your OPEX? And I definitely think that when organizations start flipping it and looking at the cost of attrition and where they see the opportunities with these talent pools.

they’ll reframe it in their minds. But that for me is one of the big issues and I hope that over the next few years we can do something to address that.

David Hunt (42:07.974)
Yeah, it’s certainly a big challenge. And as I said at the top, we could do four or five podcasts, I think, and I feel like we haven’t really just scratched the surface, but really appreciate the time that you shared so far. Maybe we’ll do a refreeze at some point, but thank you for sharing your thoughts on and experiences and the challenges that you’ve had so far and given some insights. hopefully we will continue the dialogue, I’m sure, in the other parts.

Monica Collings (42:14.028)
I think we could.

David Hunt (42:31.13)
gain some of the experiences of board maybe in another forum or another matter. it’s hugely important that startups and growth and scale up companies have the experiences of people like yourselves who’ve led through real challenges. And it’s great that you see the way that you can fulfill yourself and sort of, I know Keith and the various other people that you’ve, I’m you work with are hugely grateful for the work that, the advice and the…

Yeah, just the sanity check that people, really strong board can provide to an organization because it’s tough. It’s always tough, right?

Monica Collings (43:03.31)
Yeah, it is. And you do need people around you that have this policy around actually, you don’t spend as much time together as a board. So you do need to like each other and get on and find a way so that you can effectively challenge and, you know, throw eggs or tomatoes at each other. But at the same time, you can still be friends and go for a drink afterwards and know that it’s all done with the right intention and in the right spirit.

David Hunt (43:29.53)
Yeah, absolutely. But Monica, listen, thanks very much for your time and I’m sure we’ll catch up soon.

Monica Collings (43:34.124)
Lovely. Nice to see you, David. Thank you so much.