Dr. Christian Thiel – Energy Nest

Dr. Christian Thiel 0:31
Hello, I’m David Hunt, CEO and founder of Hyperion executive search and your host for the leading clean tech podcast. hope everybody is safe and well getting closer to being vaccinated. Now on the wrong side of 50, I hope I’m going a little bit closer to the front of that queue. This has been another extraordinary week in the world of energy, particularly in Texas and some of the other Western US states so it’s timely that this week we return to Our favourite topic of long duration energy storage technologies for our conversation. I’m delighted to be joined by Dr. Christian teal. Christian is the CEO of energy nest a 10 year old Norwegian startup with branches in Germany and Spain. Editing nest has developed a thermal battery to unlock the value of underutilised energy like waste heat, for example, to tackle the huge issues of the energy transition and industrial decarbonisation. Christian joined the company as CEO back in 2014. After stints with senvion McKinsey, UBS and BMW. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Hello, and welcome to the leaders in clean tech podcast. Christian.

David. Good to be here. Looking forward to our conversation.

David Hunt 1:37
Yeah. Last night, I think I wrote on the Episode Notes that we talked about this first, maybe at least two if not three years ago. So it’s good to have you with us. Last, but a lot has evolved in that time. So it’s it’s good to pick up the story now.

Dr. Christian Thiel 1:49
Yes. Likewise, the same in Germany that the things that take long will be good.

David Hunt 1:55
Yeah, yeah. Well, let’s hope so. Now you put the pressure on, but

Dr. Christian Thiel 2:00
this can also be you just have a good time.

Let’s go with that. Okay,

David Hunt 2:05
cool. Okay, so often it comes up with conversations. In fact, I wrote something this morning, just on LinkedIn, and, and also with VCs about the transition of people from a corporate environment or consultancy environment into a into a startup culture. And I think you’re another example where that has really worked. Well, of course, there, there can be challenges, and it’ll be good to dig into that. But first and foremost, you have obviously made that transition into a very young energy nest in 2014. But perhaps you can give us a little bit of a flavour of your career journey, and how and why you joined energy nest when you did? Oh, yeah.

Dr. Christian Thiel 2:42
I can, of course. So, I have to say, basically, that, you know, now what energy nest and I’m leading the company since six and a half years, I guess. So it’s been a while already, even though it doesn’t feel like it, you know, the first time in my career, that whatever I do, from Monday to Friday, or from Monday to Monday in reality, you know, it doesn’t feel like work. It’s more like a, like a mission, something, you know, striving from one achievement to the next. But not only that, it’s doing it’s it’s, it’s following a path, a joint pursuit with a great team. And a great team is obviously my colleagues, my dear colleagues that I work with, but also, you know, engaged investors, board members, partners, suppliers, customers, you know, it’s a bit like everyone is carrying everyone forward and wants to achieve something new, something great to succeed in something, you know, make important contributions, you know, to the challenge that we that we have that day, in our case, it’s, you know, on the environmental side and co2 reduction. And that hasn’t always been like that. And I have been fortunate though, to, you know, work at some great companies, you know, BMW, UBS, McKinsey, just to name a couple and, you know, these are great institutions, great, great corporates, and I also had the privilege you know, starting actually before University in Germany, this concept called our spiritual which is a vocational training, and it will trick together with university afterwards and had the privilege of seeing you know, that great organisation represented in many countries, you know, sales subsidiaries headquarters, you name it, and you know, working there, do my internships at that company during University and then you know, after university the first real job, so to say, you know, for decent pay, yeah. was a great experience. However, I felt that you know, these corporates can also be sort of machines and You know, when you’re young and a bit over enthusiastic, this is appreciated, but not by everyone. So what I’m trying to say is, you know, sometimes when you want to be engaged, and maybe that has changed since then, but, you know, you are also showing that, you know, this is not your business stick to your roots, and you’re there when you do the next job rotation in three, four years from now. And that just didn’t feel right, or what I wanted. So So, you know, after, after my first four years, which is actually quite long, I then changed into investment banking, and from there to McKinsey, and then there, I started to, you know, get acquainted with the energy sector over over several projects, you know, in a consultancy, you’re getting great insights over a lot of topics, kind of get a try out, what thrills you what intrigues you. And for me, I guess it was the energy sector. Also following that in line with the, in an event that we saw in Germany, it was really interesting. And, you know, as life plays from there, I went to mid cap company in Germany, a wind turbine manufacturer, and back then in 2011, that was the only one Besides, you know, big, big Siemens that was producing onshore and offshore turbines. And that that was, that was super interesting, because, you know, as x consultants, you obviously, you know, always predestined to do strategic work in these companies. So I left the strategy department, but also bid up in new markets team, you know, falling through my passion for bit off, you know, unknown territories adventures, but also seeking for the next, next areas of growth. These four technologies for products and printed products, then went quite well. And then there came a time where I, you know, also wanted to grow again, and with my Boston had a conversation, you know, of what is possible in that organisation and what not. And, you know, at that time, I was also introduced to the opportunity at energy nest actually got my former boss himself after after working hours, and, you know, and yeah, that was 2014. And since then, I’m super proud and happy to be, you know, serving energy next to the company and the team and like, my current role.

David Hunt 7:25
Oh, yeah, yeah, no, it’s really interesting to hear you talk about the the current roles and mission rather than a job. And again, you know, at the Hyperion, we have a lot of people who approach us who are in jobs and are clearly looking for whatever their mission could be. And I think it’s kind of interesting, because it is also sometimes a perception. And sometimes the reality that people from a corporate background really struggle in the startup environment can’t quite get to grips with the chaos, the positive chaos, the quick speed, the fact you have so many, you know, you have to make your own tea, you have to, you have to polish your own desk, or you know, just that that side of things. But actually, I think it’s really useful that you know, how to navigate a corporate environment, further down the line, when you start to get strategic partnerships, and you start to negotiate contracts with big corporates, maybe you have a CVC, a corporate investor. So for me, I don’t think a corporate background isn’t necessarily a bad thing. In a startup environment, of course, it’s all about the individual. But would you say that sort of that experience of navigating big companies is helping you now as the CEO of of a startup?

Unknown Speaker 8:31
You know, it is definitely helpful. And as I said, you know, those are great companies, great learning environments, and I wouldn’t want to miss it for a second. The you learn a lot, you learn a lot about, you know, decision making processes, how to do the right assessments and analysis, how to position topics, you know, what kind of instruments you need, you know, controlling projects, etc. I mean, there’s lots of stuff you learn from companies that obviously do a good job in that, you know, some more, some less, but but as long as you learn, you know, that’s never wrong, according to my experience. And the benefit of, you know, applying this in a startup is that you bring a certain set of guidance, but at the same time, it’s now combined with an extremely fast pace and decision making. Yep. If I take an example, I mean, you know, we decide a lot of topics in our team meetings, that’s once a week, every Wednesday, Thursday morning, and we talk about top topics and either we agree to have a, you know, separate decision process or we just decided that meeting and every employees around the table and gets to contribute. And that’s also you know, in the meantime, our our our team really has grown and, and, you know, it’s it’s a it’s a it’s a group of really functional experts, great individuals at the same time and a strong kind of like, execution buddy, if you may for what we do. And, you know, I can I can lean back not to lean back in the literal sense, but you know, just by highlighting what’s important to consider and the team takes it from there and is driving its own decision making processes, I only have to be like the corrective or the the guidance now and this is really where it starts to become fun because it’s on the other hand, you know, you have these great tools but a lot of times you know, the teams who perform the work etc. There’s so many hierarchies between and top management, especially the big companies that you know, things get lost in print translations, things take time, you don’t know what is really meant when someone says something is a political agenda or not. And and you don’t have that in the in the startup environment, and we simply do not have time for politics, things past issues are too transparent. And and that is something you know, that I personally, truly enjoy. On the other hand, also, of course, in corporates, once you know, when you work on board papers, or you know, for for clients and consultancies, have to present a project update or project outcome summary and stuff you, you learn from that how to work more also, with your external stakeholders, be it investors, spirit customers, very important for us, for example. And that certainly helps, because corporates provide that kind of street credibility when you work in them along the way. And, you know, as long as you keep your own agility and kind of like, see how do others do it? What can I learn from it? What hasn’t worked? Well, so what I should that what should I definitely avoid? Or, you know, should I dare take a risk in a certain situation that brings me fall forward? I mean, you know, these all are all things that once you have, you know, seen this across the board of many settings, will pay back in one way or the other, which is,

David Hunt 11:59
yeah, yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. Thanks for sharing that. So listen, let’s take a dive into the technology. As you probably know, I’m an energy nerd broadly, or a clean tech nerd broadly, but long duration of energy storage is just so interesting and so important, not just because of the problem that it solves, but usually, and the fun stuff isn’t actually based on rocket science necessarily, but it’s the very smart application of existing materials and fairly low tech technology sometimes. So, share us a little bit please if you would have the energy nest solution, how it works and what are your primary applications. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 12:33
So, how it works is actually fairly simple we we engineer develop and then market some of the battery solutions, thermal batteries are a modular and scalable energy storage solution for energy in form of heat hydrated in our case, and our storage medium messes solid state high performance concrete that you know, we we refer to as heat create, because it’s you know, concrete is for constructions he created for storing hydrate heat and you know in in in thermal battery design, we have elements in these elements you have cost heat exchangers pipes, if you may, and the heat transfer fluid which can be a standard industry thermal oil, synthetic oil or or steam that charges and discharges for thermal battery. So, you get that the heat in into the storage now, past your storage effectively at quite minimal losses, you know, we talked about efficiency was off 95% and beyond. And, you know, that makes it very applicable for a wide range of target segments. Yeah. And obviously, by by storing high great heat, it’s no secret that we target the heat market which has been grossly overlooked in the past but, you know, with with electricity, electricity being on a on a on a very strong renewables path already with all the wind and solar PV projects etc. are in place and, you know, floating discussions around floating wind turbines, wind parks and NPV, Buck, etc. The next really big thing to reduce our co2 emissions is to attack the heat market and for us specifically, it’s not so much about you know, building efficiency we By the way, get a request, you know, of our he quit could be applied in buildings. But we’re more after the big, big emitters. And by that if you would give it a name it would be you know, global industry or manufacturing. And and power generation. And I don’t mean this, as you know, these are the bad guys, I think I mean, this in the context of these are customers and project partners that we really can help to solve the problem. And we help them by, you know, advanced waste heat recovery systems. Yeah. And I’m happy to, you know, should you know more about this talk about it, or, you know, we hit them with electrifying their thermal demand. And this is interesting, because the according to IAEA and arena, the global industrial sector accounts for one third of the global energy demand, and 75% of that one third. So a total of 25% of global energy demand is in form of heat, industrial heat, and this is exactly wellbore gamers, this is where we see a big market, this is where we see a lot of customers, we can help and it can benefit from solutions, like ours. You know, and this is this is, I think, a way for us to see a major contribution towards co2 reduction by smart systems that, you know, have a payback for customers, you know, that are not just to be built for, for the environmental purposes purpose alone, because, you know, with a price on co2 and natural gas having a price and potentially increasing if you look at Texas last week, I mean, this becomes really an interesting hedge against, you know, the the boundary conditions, and they will change, let no doubt about this. And we can help, you know, do something good for the environment, but also do something good for business.

David Hunt 16:33
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. I think it’s something which I talk about occasionally. And I’m equally excited about lithium ion batteries, and about the transition for the, you know, the electrification of transport, and all of which are very important. But as you say, some of the biggest emitters of carbon are, you know, steel, cement, and agriculture, and we need to really address these problems. And clearly, you’re tapping into that opportunity with, you know, highly high industrial energy use and, and therefore, co2 emissions. So, again, perhaps you can give us without necessarily naming, you know, individual companies or work that might be possible or so, but give us some examples of where you have projects, either at pilot stage or commercial stage in terms of where they’re being used, and what’s the benefit of those to those clients?

Dr. Christian Thiel 17:23
Yeah, I can maybe briefly go through three examples that just give a flavour of what’s possible, because I mean, you know, we have, I think, five target segments, five target applications, and every year we learn about something new coming up, the way we can configure our time and battery solutions, or, you know, where there’s, you know, any sort of heat reservoir or heat requirement that we could serve with our thermal battery. So, what I’m providing now is just a merely a snapshot as of now, February 2021. But, you know, we our first commercial project is with at the Italian energy company, and they are what they are doing is, I mean, they have released last year strategy at the new aney basically, which which is a complete that’s a story of ambition around decarbonisation with the support of the ticket for for oil majors right and we are happy to be you know, supporting them on this with with our first joint project now and in a you know refinery in Italy, they will change the the the energy production of plan from you know, grid solutions currently to an in defence setting and for that they have industry installed a industrial scale concentrated thermal plant

David Hunt 18:49
to

Unknown Speaker 18:50
you know, generate energy and electricity and steam in that case from from solar thermal processes with own receiver technology and we are providing the storage and the storage is ultimately you know, ensuring the energy supply in that case and form of electricity and steam process steam industrial process steam, you know, whenever there’s transients or clouds passing over the solar field and the performance you know, perhaps having a small you know, pump on the south side and you could you could buffer this with the storage and likewise, you could also start you know, or you could but can start operations of of that new power system before sunrise or operate till a bit after, after sunset. So, this is just, you know, this is industrial scale project is our first So, it’s a neat small setting for us, but, you know, any bought this from us at commercial terms, so we really had to be up to sell something, you know, technology as a first word to a major global corporate and believe me they have requirements and you know, we have all sorts of things regulated etc and and we did this this is great and now we foresee or any foresees the so the modules have been produced in our Rotterdam manufacturing hub they have been handed over to the customer any and any foresees the installation of our storage modules in a concentrated solar thermal plant in spring this year, right example of what we do is with Yara Yara, many may not know it, but it’s the biggest fertiliser producer in the world. And ultimately, they’re they have a lot of production plants all over the world. And many of them are my own. That’s just chemical plants. Yeah, so so it’s like a chemical plant and you have exothermic and endothermic processes in there. And energy NES provides a thermal battery solution that serves as a buffer for, you know, for for steam for Steam cycles, and ultimately allows er to operate their steam cycle much more efficiently and to you know, prevent waste in form of steam, which is a great, great project. And we just, were just finishing up the detailed engineering phase for that project. And then also, I mean, there is another project, I mean, we we you know, if you read up on energy, as you’ll find in the hotline, and the headlines that we are Siemens energy, energy’s you know, preferred partner for industrial scale, thermal energy storage, so really great energy storage, thermal energy storage, serving industrial customers. And here, we are also working on a super exciting projects that I can, that I can detail out here on this podcast on unfortunately, which allows, you know, power plants a completely new degree of flexibility on the power grid

Dr. Christian Thiel 22:11
right now, which

Unknown Speaker 22:12
is great. And, you know, once once there’s something to tell David, you’ll be the first one, I give a podcast just about that project. On the other hand, pick, yeah, just maybe just to throw throw one or two more in this, we just signed an engineering study. And this is always the first step into joint product development with a customer, ultimately, then, hopefully leads to a project. But we’re sitting on a Spanish speciality steel manufacturer, where we go into a, you know, modern steel fabrication process, you know, they made steel with an electric arc furnace, there’s waste heat, yeah, and we, you know, on a battery will tap into the waste heat and make it accessible for that customer, you know, for Steam and electricity, or perhaps a combination thereof. And, and therefore, avoid, you know, wasting that precious energy. And the interesting thing about this kind of waste heat recovery system is, it doesn’t really matter how you generate that heat in the first place, you know, currently they do it electric often is obviously with electricity, but many other customers are burning natural gas, you know, be substituted by that over time. Or even if you were to use hydrogen, it doesn’t matter, because you, you always have a waste heat inventory, as we say that we work with that goes to our storage and makes that energy dispatchable upon, you know, whenever you need it and has value. And and this is really great because even in renewables, you fully fully electrified renewables for basically, you would want to limit the number of turbines you put on the planet, right? Because, I mean, it’s a competition for land as well. So being energy efficient as best as possible, I think is something that is enabled by our thermal battery solutions. You don’t want to you don’t want to cut down the last tree just to have another wind turbine, I mean, that that’s great and also PV plants, but you know, we need to understand that there is space constraints and constraints and these kind of power plants need a lot of land. So, we need to be wise with it. That is an argument for you know, very high efficiency solutions, that in the best case can you know recycle energy in our systems as best as possible? You know, the last sentence two applications, you know, where we also started project development work is on the electrification of heat, where our thermal battery allows you know, via and you know, electric heaters basically to harvest low cost renewables on the grid. You know, if you take the Dutch markets in the morning, great wind load, you would store that low cost renewables doesn’t even have to be for free but low cost and authentic batteries. And then over time, you know, when when when low cost renewable, electricity is over and you know, other plants provide electricity in the grid at higher prices, you can be discharged from the thermal battery the heat that you need as industrial customer mainly for Steam, or, or process heat. You can discharge into your processes, you know, at, at the the quantum that you have necessary in the thermal battery is highest upon the need. So it’s really something that can electrify your operations. And this is all what you know, a energy target state should be that, you know, whatever can be meaningfully electrified, should be electrified, and wherever there is energy in the system remaining. It should be utilised. And forgive me but one more remark. I mean, if you take Europe, for instance, the European industry, according to report is, it’s wasting hundreds of terawatt hours of energy every year. And that is wasting by waste heat. Just imagine if you could just tap that waste heat, which is there and put a you know, just the imaginary steam turbine behind that heat. You could you know, from these hundreds of terawatt hours, you could you could provide electricity, then to entire countries like Greece or Portugal. I mean, that’s the kind of magnitude that we talk about. And there’s definitely value in it. And there’s definitely room in it in order to, you know, make that energy accessible and affordable. for everyone.

David Hunt 26:33
Yeah, no, absolutely. And thanks for sharing those examples. And I think you’re quite right, I think, you know, first and foremost, let’s just use less, and whatever we can do to use less and recycle what we do use of anything, and that includes energy, then there has to be a good thing. And obviously, then we just have to make sure whenever we generate in the first place is from renewables. But yeah, there’s an awful lot of in this transitionary period of you know, if you’re recycling fossil fuel heat, then at least it’s recycled, and not just going straight up into to carbon. So

Dr. Christian Thiel 27:02
exactly, that’s, that’s, that’s, I mean, that should be the minimum responsibility, we should have write something, and there will be a transition period, if something can be utilised. Today better than yesterday, it’s our goddamn duty to do so. And this is also an example of why you know, energy ness is not just part of the, you know, energy system and state that we all strive towards, but also an important contributor to the energy transition that’s necessary to make just, you know, thermal power plants, not talking about coal, but you know, natural gas, for instance, to make that more, more sustainable, more, more efficient still. And in the integration with renewable energy.

David Hunt 27:43
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And obviously will point to any just note, some interesting videos on your websites will point to everybody to the Product Solutions, and to your website, on the episode page for the podcast as well. One thing that I guess comes up quite often, and I think it is changing, I think people like breakthrough energy ventures and others who are starting to back organisations like yours, which are playing the bigger part or addressing some of the bigger problems. So I think there is a bit that is changing for the better, but does it still frustrate you that there are more so called sexy technologies, electric vehicles, and hypercars, and all this kind of stuff? And obviously, lithium ion battery plants, which don’t get me wrong, I do love and they’re important. But does it frustrate you sometimes that they get a lot of intention and an investment and things that are addressing heavy industry and heat and some of the other aspects perhaps sometimes don’t get the recognition or the impact of or the headlines they deserve?

Dr. Christian Thiel 28:38
Absolutely, yes. And absolutely, no, I tell you why No. Because our daily businesses, Angie, nest, is, I mean, we have full books on projects to work on. And you know, we’ve just hired two great new colleagues into our team. We’re just about to hire another bunch on the on the engineering side, so we can work as much as we want to. So I think that there is no problem really for us in that sense. And the customers that we deal with and the partners they know about the situation and how we can help them. Obviously a bit publicity around, you know, the kind of projects that we do and how we have customers, that always helps. But there is no there’s no problem. Let’s say I’m just a bit surprised. And that’s the other thing is that the mainstream headlines are so dominated by, by stories about TVs, you know, electric vehicles, and to be a sentiment that if everyone drives an electric vehicle, we can save the world with regards to, you know, climate emissions. And you know, you got to look at the fact I mean that the transport sector is by far, it’s not the biggest emitter on the planet, right. And then if you look at the really big emitters in the transport sector, it’s shipping and aviation. And then it’s basically private cars. I’m not, you know, I, you know, I’m, by the way, we were just buying electric car for the vehicle for the city ourselves. So I’m a big fan, don’t get me wrong, but the sentiment is that if there’s a product and you know, you, you you’re you can be fully computerised that product with big screens inside, and you can drive it, feel it, you know, touch it, it’s considered like more sexy, and, and the really the big topics, and that can make a change in relatively short time with regards to co2 emissions globally. I mean, really big change. That is not, that is not really touched upon, and I don’t, I don’t really, you know, mind in a way that, you know, the heat market, it’s hard to understand you don’t see the heat. You don’t, you know, you can take it for a test drive the heat. It’s simply not there in one way, but any any other way in another way it is there. And that is changing, David, because last year, I think some of the bigger newspapers two examples is for instance, Forbes. Forbes magazine last year, talked about the heat opportunity. And and the, you know, the potential it really bears not just as a market for business, but for co2 reduction. And also the German hundreds plot had basically a quite intriguing headline that was around, you know, the secret process energy eating monsters. Yeah. Which is just giving a magnitude of the industrial heat. So what we’re talking about, so I think there’s a shift in consciousness. But you know, from a mainstream perspective, yes, it’s sometimes it’s a bit you know, you just wonder yourself, Come on, guys. I mean, yes, it’s great electric vehicles. I’m, you know, I come from BMW and I have a passion for mobility as such, and every nor new concept and technology. But it’s not all about ease. I mean, energy system is currently you know, consists of so many different aspects and, and technologies and contributions for making the entire energy system more effective, not just energy storage, which is 100 metre going for No, absolutely more. And it’s not just easy. And sometimes you get the sentiment, it’s just electric cars, you know, and that’s a bit misleading, I think, to the public.

David Hunt 32:30
Yeah. But hopefully now that battle is already won. I know, it’s still a little time to play out. But that that was one. So hopefully, the mainstream press contender attention to some of these issues a bit more. But as you said, there has been a transition or there has been more of a change, both in broader awareness and certainly in the investment market, that we’ve seen in companies like yours making making big impact. So let me jump back to something else actually, going back to your personal transition from company to startup and and more specifically, given that the last year of which know pretty much we’ve all been asked, we all are now working remotely What have been some of your challenges or learnings both in terms of from from a team from a team and people perspective, first moving from a corporate to a startup and more specifically managing people and managing business remotely over this last year.

Dr. Christian Thiel 33:17
Yeah, I mean, last year was special, wasn’t it? You know, it’s a bit puzzling to see on one end for energy Nesta was the most successful year for, you know, existence so far as a company. Because, you know, we we built our first commercial modules, we handed them over to our customer, big milestone, obviously, also payment milestone, which my CFO was very happy about, you know, in any investor, and, you know, great new cooperations with Siemens energy. And we started the Euro project. I mean, it was really great. On the other hand, we are a young company, and we are, I would say, not the newest startup on the block, but rather a true pan European scale up. So we are, you know, we’ve just started commercialization has great traction. And, and we we also expanded on this. So, two years ago, we opened up a engineering and project management office in Spain and severe. Last year during COVID. Actually, we took advantage of opening up a subsidiary gmbhthe in Germany, in Hamburg, to make this our project development hub. And then of course, we have our HQ, and also where the majority of our staff is based, and colleagues. And we have these three entities and the great thing is we progress with everything. I mean, we worked on projects, we hired new staff. We divided the work amongst our you know, our locations and in a structured way. And also we feel that, you know, with our partner setup that flies quite well, the real challenge is really you know, when you have a great team, and you’re you’re stronger together than you are Don’t start missing personal interactions. And I think one of the companies we had I mean, we were working digitally with with teams and or link it was called before coming from, I think Skype for Business or something before long before and in Skype meetings, etc. And I just think that, you know, you can run a business with, with, with teams and phone phone actually not so much. And it’s really awkward human and other phone trying to, you know, make commercial for teams, also lots of meetings and blue jeans or whatever fault. But you get my point, right, but there’s a limit to what these these on the screen meetings can do. Because I, you know, I, I miss interacting personally, with my, with my team in Spain, with my team in Norway, even with my, with my team here in Hamburg, where I’m currently based, because we just see each other on the screen. I’m saying that because, you know, based on experience, a probably a good mix is good. So if you can use the technologies for simply being remote and flexible, but if you can also use the power of physical meetings, because we all know that the discussions you have in person, maybe even starting on a coffee machine, there. There’s different intellect in these discussions, different ideas, people have a tendency to unfold, you know, very differently partly in in, you know, in those physical settings, and that’s what I’m really missing. And, and I think anyone probably right, so. So we don’t have a problem, but I just, you know, there is, I think, I think it’d be good also for the psychology of everyone if we can move to a, let’s say, a new normal state again, you know, which is hopefully driven by consequent and good government rollout of vaccines and, you know,

risk decrease. Yeah, that’s, that’s how I see the lockdown the last year and the current situation. Because at the end, we are all we are humans, right. And as long as we’re in physical shape and form and not digitise ourselves, I think it’s great to interact in person and also, you know, kind of like, read three dimensional dimensional faces, when you say something, and then that is true for the team, but also customers, but also investors and other stakeholders and partners. I mean, we have, we have quite early in COVID we have digitised our site visits, part of our work is that we go to customers, when we discuss projects, and you know, we look at the heat sources, and the heat sinks. So and you know, how our storage can be integrated, where the time points are, where the space for the storage needs to be built, right. So where the space for the storage would be, how it’s co located within the industrial facility, etc. So, really discussing, it was a day or two that we probably spent with on this, we have really digitised this, so now it can be just one of us, or even even the plant operator or site manager with a with a camera or mobile phone with a camera on us to the plan with us on the line telling them what to do in terms of you know, visual proof points. That is that is a great benefit. I think we should just keep things like that. But then the the real human aspect of interaction engaging with human beings. That is beyond

David Hunt 38:37
Yeah.

Dr. Christian Thiel 38:39
Production meetings. Ya know, it’s

really interesting, again, I think we talked before in our society, you know, from a human capital point of view and building teams for for startups and for investors that we work with. And for organisations like your own, you know, we everybody’s been very innovative. And a great deal of work has been done in the last year that you wouldn’t have necessarily predicted pre COVID. And I think that’s been fantastic. And, as I say, sort of invention is the mother of necessity or Necessity is the mother of invention, I should say. So and that’s been great. But going back to the point of those human interactions, I think there’s so much that you gain from the nuance of human interaction, and we are, as you say, you know, social animals and I think the sooner we get back to some element of human interaction, even if it’s still, you know, socially distance to some extent, I think we’ll will benefit but we shouldn’t lose sight of some of the tools, resources and ways we’ve dealt with, you know,

exactly what you say and just, you know, to chip in there real quickly, I mean, you know, working working for at a with a startup, I mean, uncertainty is is a big, big component of our lives. You know, it’s it’s how do you deal with uncertainty, be it with regards to you know, projects, staffing financing, anything that you do with it has to do with uncertainties. And, you know, when there are uncertainties, it’s always great to team up and discuss this, and really, you know, drill through this intellectually, and also from all sorts of angles. And that is that is really a strength. And I think, you know, human beings to let that, you know, in a physical second setting, and to do this on to have the same, let’s say, the same impact on your decisions on teams where, you know, dealing with with the uncertainty, I think it’s, it’s difficult over screen, it’s not impossible, but it certainly requires a higher amount of energy. Yeah. And, and that can be a strain over time. So So I think, you know, and that is also what everyone else is saying is, you know, at some point, we need to get back together again. And, you know, function also on a on a physical basis, but you know, it it I think in a startup, in a startup environment, it’s even more critical to kind of like, deal with all these uncertainties in the best way possible. And and, you know, and that is in a, in a very human way. Yeah.

David Hunt 41:14
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. And so we get to that point sooner, rather than later. And go back to your point, you know, everybody talks now about zoom fatigue. And we all understand that when you’ve had, you know, four or five, six zoom meetings, at the end of the day, you feel like maybe you’ve, you’ve run half, half a marathon or something, it can physically tie you as well as mentally tie you. But we’ve spent a lot of time talking, which is brilliant, and it’s been very enjoyable, what I’d like to sort of perhaps get a flavour from you, Christian is if we, if you get out your crystal ball a little and look at with with both with energy nest and with the broader, longer duration storage sector, where it might be I mean, obviously, we should say, we’ve seen this huge impacts last week in Texas, which know isn’t directly related, but we’re starting to see events where people are focusing their attention, through necessity to solutions that need to be brought forward more quickly. So how do you see the next three to five years for for any just for for the broader duration, long duration storage sector.

Dr. Christian Thiel 42:14
Now, maybe it’s speaking not only on the app of engineers, but I see in the next three to five years, we will see great projects that are not just you know, contracted, but being installed, I think the next three to five years, it’s, it’s, it’s a lot of projects that we’ll see. And that will really be a leapfrog move for for energy storage applications, and for a more conscious use of energy. So I’m really looking forward to that the next three to five years will be tremendously important and exciting. And as part of energy nest, I mean, if I just look at our own pipeline of projects, the type of customers we we target, I think, you know, this would really be a propeller for growth. Not a propeller catapult actually, for for us, I mean, if only, you know, fraction of that stuff that we’re working on, comes through. I mean, that’d be that’d be amazing to see. And also the from our perspective, the the versatility of our technology and applications, because you know, our from a battery is not a one, one trick pony. As I said, it’s a suffocation of industries. So we will see projects here, it’s about waste heat recovery. It’s about flexible, rising power plants. And it’s giving concentrated solar thermal another edge by, you know, reducing total system cost with a really low cost, high efficiency, low long duration storage solution. So I guess that’s what we’ll see. And obviously, you know, policy will have to be followed through I mean, the EU announced, I think December was their co2 reduction target, you’ll see more of that. And also, companies were followed through, they already had internal co2 pricing to many of the customers that we speak to at least, but I think there will be a different pool from these kind of co2 prices, if they aren’t even being upped. By the latest, let’s say, you know, legislation that is, so yeah, intriguing. And I think those customers will win that basically a debt. Yeah,

David Hunt 44:16
I think it’d be really interesting to see what comes through the cop 26. And that happens soon. And we’re obviously we have a Biden presidency in the US and a lot of drivers and things like the Texas events but more of 19 there’s an understanding now that we really have to put the foot down in terms of these really heavily polluting and heavy industries over the next eight to 10 years because that’s pretty much what we’ve got left to to make a massive impact on the possibility of keeping the below 1.5 degrees but so much to be done. And it’s great to hear of another company yours. You know, the example that you have opportunities and applications which are broad and can make an impact and it’s great to keep an eye on how things grow with you and Would be great to revisit any of those sort of significant projects or events in the in the coming months. We’ve been talking about so I’d like to close out Krishna if I if I could. And I know that as a CEO, you probably don’t get an awful lot of time to yourself, but I do where I can love to read and always close out looking for perhaps any ideas of where you have in the past where you continue to get inspiration, whether that is books or podcasts or thought leaders or places that you go to, and that have inspired you over the years. Yeah, I

Dr. Christian Thiel 45:32
mean, yeah,

Unknown Speaker 45:33
maybe, you know, I

Dr. Christian Thiel 45:34
I do different things in my free time, then, you know, I do at work and I enjoy podcasts. You know, for instance, I’m a fan of Jocko willing, you know, and his stories about leadership and you know, getting people into a studio and interviewing them, let’s do it. But also I like to, you know, just deal with history. So, for instance, role models that I have is, you know, from from the past, scientist, like Norwegian tour Heyerdahl who sailed on raft basically from from Peru to Polynesia, in the 40s. So I mean that it address and also people like Alexander von Humboldt, the chemists and biologists who just made science accessible for people by just you know, collecting samples and daring to, to just explore and also, you know, encounter some difficult expeditions. So that’s the stuff you know, really kind of like adventure slash intrapreneurship. That was, you know, unseen or unheard of at the time, that’s something that continuously thrills me. And, you know, I do read books also. But I have to admit, I’m one of the people you know, persons or people who enjoy a very good movie every once in a while just to you know, soom out and get inspired from the outside.

David Hunt 46:57
Yeah, though, you absolutely need that from time to time. And then whether it’s cycling, skiing, or whatever physical activity, I think is always important to some extent, but appreciate you sharing those, we’ll put a link to some of those on the on the podcast website, as well. But listen, it’s been fascinating Krishna last to to spend some time with you talking about tenergy nest. As I say, we’ll put the various links up on the podcast episode page, and they’re really keen to see how things evolve for you in the coming weeks and months and years. Great.

Dr. Christian Thiel 47:24
Thank you so much for having me, David.